April 5, 2004 Minutes for IEEE 1364 ETF

Meeting called to order 8:30 April 5, 2004

Attendance:

0000111000000000000111110000 \
4321210987654433211221109998 / Month
0001000011112021121101022002 \
5892136814691740073628413996 / Day

aaaaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaa*aa Steven Sharp
aa-aaaapaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-a*aa Karen Pieper
a-aaaaa-a----a--aa-aa--a-$aa Cliff Cummings
-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa=-a Shalom Bresticker
-aaaaa--a-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa*aa Stefen Boyd
---a------a--aaaaaaaaaaaa*aa Dennis Marsa
--a-aaaaaaa-aaaaa-aaa-aaa$aa James Markevitch
-------aaaa-aa-a-aaaaaaa-=-a Gordon Vreugdenhil
--------aaa--aaa-aa-aaaaa$aa Anders Nordstrom
---------------------aaa-$a- Ted Elkind
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-a*a- Brad Pierce
aaaaaaaaaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaaa*a- Charles Dawson
aaa-aaaaa-aa-a---aa-a-aa-$a- Mike McNamara
aaaaaaa--aa-aaaaaaaaaa---*aa Stu Sutherland
-a-aaaaa--a--------------*a- Tom Fitzpatrick
-------------------------*aa Elliot Mednick
---a--a-a-------aa---------- Don Mills
-------aaaa-----a----------- Jay Lawrence
----a-aa-------a------------ Mehdi Mohtashemi
--a--a--aaaa--aa------------ Kurt Baty
----------a----------------- David Smith
-aa--aaaa-a----------------- Dennis Brophy
aaaaaaaaaa------------------ Francoise Martinolle
----aaaa-------------------- Drew Lynch
--a---a--------------------- David Roberts
-----a---------------------- Ennis Hawk
aaa-a----------------------- Ronald Goodstein
----a----------------------- Keith Gover
-aaa------------------------ Jason Woolf

a attended
p proxy
- absent

The chair directed everone's attention to
http://www.verilog.com/IEEEVerilog.html where a link to the IEEE
policy is prominent.

Review of the minutes of the last ETF meeting (March 8, 2004).
Ron moves that we accept the minutes of the meeting. Charles
seconds. No opposed. No abstain. Passes.

>From the email vote on the generate proposal:
The generate proposal passed. Shalom had comments. Stu
opposed on the basis of more discussion required.

Steven moves that we ammend the passed generate proposal in the
following way:
In the new proposal:

- In 12.4.1, Example 2, on the line

assign bin[i] = ^gray[SIZE-1:i];

add a comment as follows:

// i refers to the implicitly defined localparam whose value in each instance
// of the generate block is the value of the genvar when it was elaborated.

- On page 12 of the new text pdf (section 12.4.2), change
the name of the gate from test.u1.x1, to test.u1.g1.

Charles seconds. No opposed. No abstain. Passes.

Shalom's comments for future discussion:

1) the concept of external name in 12.4.3 doesn't seem
complete enough. If a declaration does not have a
hierarchical name but instead just an implicit external
name, is the external name the one to be used in a
VCD dump? What about a pli by-name lookup? Does
a $display with %m in an unnamed block produce the
implicit name? I think that it would be valuable
to explicitly define the interactions/requirements
with respect to other aspects of the LRM.

Committee concensus:
VCD dump, $display with %m are ok. PLI name queries
should be ok. SDF should be ok. References
in the RTL is not ok because the names have the
potential to change frequently with the structure
of the design.

2) 13.1 clarifies (by implication) that a configuration
cannot create a design root from a module that would
not otherwise be a "top module". I disagree with this.
If a self recursive model is *defined to be* a design root
by a configuration, we should respect that. Forcing
a user to create an additional level of hierarchy for
the purpose of using a configuration does not make sense
to me. The restriction on the *automatic determination*
of top modules is absolutely necessary, but in the
context of configurations we shouldn't try to second
guess the designer.

Committee concensus:
If a configuration specifies a top-level
module, that specification overrides the implicit
top-level module defined by the default rules, even
if that module is recursive.

3) 10.3.5 removes generated functions from the list of
constant functions. I don't understand the rationale
for this. Since the visibility rules and locality
rules guarantee that a function would be elaborated before
any possible use as a constant function, I don't see
why this is restricted and parameter dependent functions
are not.

Committee concensus:
May be possible to allow this at a future date.

- Need to finish and add 12.8 Elaboration.
Committee concensus:
Jason had written a solution up, but Shalom felt it
was too complicated, so we removed it from the current
draft.

- Defparam restrictions, two kinds, explanation too complex (Sharp, Feb 17; Shalom, Feb 1).
How can user decide whether defparam is legal or not? Update the 1st para. in 12.2.1.
Committee concensus:
Defer until we understand Shalom's comments.

- Add more examples
Committee concensus:
Defer until we understand Shalom's comments.

- (Params in constant functions (Sharp, Feb 3))
Committee concensus:
If generate and constant functions have an issue,
so do paramters in constant functions.

- xref in 10.3.5 should be to 12.8 after 12.8 is added.
Committee concensus:
If we add a 12.8, we'll need to add a cross reference.

- Should there be attributes within genvar_expression? See its BNF.

What about genvar's in an attribute? Also attributes
on the genvar expression (i = i + 1;)

Stu believes that any construct that exists past
elaboration time should be accessible by the PLI.

There is not agreement as to whether or not attributes
should apply to constucts that do not survive elaboration.

Stu's concerns:

- We need to ensure that the handshake between the PLI and the
ETF occur. Specifying exceptions, etc. Stu is concerned
that the expectations have not been communicated.

Steven's suggestion:

State that generate scopes are scopes so any PLI access
mmple_12_4_2_formatted.pdf

Page 15:
Add an example number... And update formatting
according to Cliff's attached document:

http://boydtechinc.com/etf/archive/att-2437/03_Example_12_4_3_formatted.pdf
The comment about genblk3 is incorrect because genblk3
is named.

Francoise will modify the example in 12_4_3 to have
it meed to happen are:

1) The two typos Shalom had indicated that we passed this
meeting.

2) Address Cliff's issues
a) the first example in 12.4.1

b) update the example on page 12 with Cliff's update

c) use Francoise's update to the example in 12.4.3

d) address "refer instance arrays" typo

e) Add Steven's rewrite on page 19

f) Add Steven's rewrite on page 21

As soon as Karen gets an updated document, she will start an
election to run a week.

------------------------------
Open Action Items:
(11/18/02) generate proposal for 17, 113, 255.

(12/1/03) 22: There is no concensus to a fix, so we will leave
this issue alone until there is one.

(12/1/03) 33: Mike MacNamera to make a proposal.

(11/18/02) Steven and committee to return with an @* proposal for
issues 82, 84
Group has agreement on some of the more contentious
issues.

(11/18/02) Evaluating TBD Errata. The tasks are:

Shalom
170 formatting of bnf non-terminals

(11/4/02) Steven will proposing a wording to fix 172. It will
be a significant rewrite.
Partially rewritten through the generate proposal. More
work will remain after the generate proposal is ready.

(11/18/02) 198, 254, 58, 318: Shalom

(7/14/03) 204: James volunteered to drive

He needs input on what the simulators do. There are some
complex issues here dealing with port collapsing and
inout.
That is covered by issue 54.

As to the exact issue in 204, how about adding examples
indicating that examples 2, 3, 4 are illegal? James will

do that.

He has not written this up yet. Shalom suggested that
this and 7 other errata be evalutated together. All of
the issues are Brad's (filed by him?) He does not want
to
drive. James will develop a proposal for all of them
including 204. 204, 227, 233, 234, 292, 332, 345, 452,
486(?).

(2/10/03) Issue 237: SV-BC19-41, SV-BC19-42
Dave Roberts and Shalom to fix the proposal expanding the
BNF and creating language to support it.

Is waiting on Shalom to do some experiments and come up
with a proposal based on the discussion of the 2/8/04
meeting.

(7/14/03) 245: Shalom
(7/14/03) 247: May be partially covered by generate proposal

(10/06/03) 428: Brad and Shalom

(3/8/04) 541: Shalom to check the proposal

------------------------------

The meeting adjourned a little after 10:30 Pacific time with
Cliff's movement.